taskSavannah Administration - Tasks: task #15731, Submission of Davis Remmel

 
 

task #15731: Submission of Davis Remmel

Submitted by:  - <_203854>
Submitted on:  Sun 19 Jul 2020 10:54:29 PM UTC  
 
Should Start On:  Sun 19 Jul 2020 05:00:00 AM UTC Should be Finished on:  Wed 29 Jul 2020 05:00:00 AM UTC
Category:  Project Approval Priority:  5 - Normal
Status:  Cancelled Privacy:  Public
Percent Complete:  0% Assigned to:  Ineiev <ineiev>
Open/Closed:  Closed Effort:  0.00

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( Jump to the original submission)

Thu 27 Aug 2020 05:41:37 PM UTC, comment #21: 

Sorry for failing to meet your expectations, and thank you for your work!

Cancelling.

Ineiev <ineiev>
Site AdministratorIn charge of this item.
Wed 26 Aug 2020 03:21:11 AM UTC, comment #20: 

Ineiev,

You're not going to review that code because I am not going to be a Savannah user after I post this message. I think you intentionally stalled, and I think this is the outcome you wanted. I don't think you were ever going to make an honest effort to review my application. When you wouldn't meet me halfway, I went 200% of the way--and that still wasn't enough to solicit a response.

There is no excuse for being so uncommunicative and so unreliable. I am not going to work with you. Maybe this community would flourish if you were more like Bandali.

Bye.

- <_203854>
Wed 26 Aug 2020 02:13:59 AM UTC, comment #19: 

Ineiev hereby responds; Ineiev isn't absent, but is backlogged a little bit.

comment #18:

> I really can't wait any longer and need mailing lists for my free software, RCU, which is why I want to use Savannah---it also exposes my users to other free software hosted here.


You'll have to wait (or find another hosting), anyway, because your package hasn't been fully evaluated yet (and in particular, the tarball URL from the original submission results in "404 Not Found" for me).

Ineiev <ineiev>
Site AdministratorIn charge of this item.
Tue 25 Aug 2020 05:52:29 PM UTC, comment #18: 

Ineiev,

I really can't wait any longer and need mailing lists for my free software, RCU, which is why I want to use Savannah---it also exposes my users to other free software hosted here.

I have authored an installation manual detailing how to install Parabola to the tablet. Everything works except for Wi-Fi, which is detailed in the conclusion (Chapter 6).

    http://www.davisr.me/dropbox/parabola-rm-draftguide/install-guide.pdf

Bandali, since it seems that Ineiev is absent and has stalled for over four weeks (one in the beginning, and three just now), if he doesn't respond in 24 hours will you please take over this ticket or pass it to a different administrator?

Thanks,
Davis

- <_203854>
Thu 20 Aug 2020 09:59:42 PM UTC, comment #17: 

Ineiev and Bandali,

Just to put one issue to rest, I can confirm that Parabola boots on the tablet. If you know someone with the hardware, I can send them my files/code so they can confirm it is 100% free. I'm trying to have Denis 'GNUtoo' Carikli confirm my work (co-founder of the Replicant project and believes this can run 100% free software). If you know anyone with the hardware, please forward them my information so we can get in-contact.

The kernel is self-compiled, and does not include any proprietary firmware. The kernel was deblobbed and checked with the linux-libre deblob scripts.

Lots of people use Parabola, so I don't think this can be a point of contention any longer. Ineiev, please let me know what else you need to move this ticket forward.

Thanks,
Davis

- <_203854>
Thu 20 Aug 2020 03:43:42 PM UTC, comment #16: 

Hi Ineiev,

It has been another two weeks. Would you please provide me with an update? I think my project deserves to be in Savannah because it is free software, works with free software, and informs others about the free software philosophy (see: the Preface section of its manual).

There is a lot of interest around my program on various forums, and I need to release it soon to capitalize on the publicity surrounding the new reMarkable tablet model. May I please have a project here?

If you feel my project doesn't adhere to the Hosting Requirements either verbatim or in spirit, please provide a detailed explanation why.

Thanks,
Davis

- <_203854>
Mon 03 Aug 2020 06:58:21 AM UTC, comment #15: 

I apologize, I have to take a two weeks long break.

Ineiev <ineiev>
Site AdministratorIn charge of this item.
Sun 02 Aug 2020 03:30:25 PM UTC, comment #14: 

Hi Davis, Ineiev,

I'm hoping we can deescalate the atmosphere here a bit.  The situation
may be nuanced, but I think it helps to remember that we are all on the
same "side" here, trying to advance user freedom.

comment #11:

> Hi Bandali,
>
> Nice to meet you again--I believe we co-moderated the IRC channels at
> LibrePlanet.
>


Nice re-meeting you too!  I was trying to remember where I'd seen your
username. :-)

>
> Yes, Debian runs with only the free repositories. But, I can see you
> guys really want a 'certified free' distro. Although I object to such
> a thing because certifications are not what makes software free, and
> it isn't specified in the hosting rules, I will do the needful and get
> one of those running on the tablet so that it cannot be a point of
> contention.
>


Great!  To my understanding, Debian without its `non-free` repo enabled
is a fully free operating system and there is no concern w.r.t. RCU.

To be clear, I was not suggesting that you must be able to run a
currently endorsed distro on the tablet for your RCU submission to be
valid.  I asked that to nudge us towards addressing Ineiev's questions
or concerns, and help move this ticket forward.

>
> Ineiev: once I do that, what other objections will you have with my
> project?
>
> Thanks,
> Davis


Ineiev,

comment #12:

> I think one more question is relevant: does any noticeable number of
> people use that free distro on that tablet? Do you always or nearly
> always use it on your tablets yourself?
>
> If not, we may suggest that your work with that free distro on the
> tablet is more of academical than practical value, and this package
> would essentially support proprietary software.
>


I think these are good questions to consider, and food for thought, but
they should not be a deciding factor on this registration application.
For what it's worth, Davis has done (arguably more than) his fair share
by demonstrating and documenting how to run a free operating system on
the tablet (if the original one is nonfree) on his site at
<http://www.davisr.me/projects/remarkable-microsd/>, so now anyone
seeking freedom on the tablet may have it.

I believe it is precisely through supporting the development of projects
like RCU that one can help grow the userbase of free software users on
such a device.  RCU itself not only runs on a free operating system, but
also talks to a device that can run a free operating system.  We should
work to encourage its development and potentially the development of
other similar packages so that people can do more and more in freedom.

In other words, it seems to me that the necessary foundation is there,
and now we all have to help build a good structure on top of it.

>
> By the way, I don't think it matters very much whether the users
> install proprietary software themselves or someone else pre-installs
> it for them: what's wrong is that people use proprietary software.


People using proprietary software is bad, but certainly not RCU's
fault.  RCU itself is free, runs on a free operating system, and talks
to free software on another device, and does not put free software users
of the tablet at a disadvantage.  In other words, it satisfies the "No
dependencies on nonfree software" as outlined on the Savannah hosting
requirements.

Cheers,
bandali

Amin Bandali <bandali>
Site Administrator
Sun 02 Aug 2020 01:51:59 PM UTC, comment #13: 

Ineiev,

> So, concretely, please respond specifically citing the sentences of the Hosting Requirements (https://savannah.nongnu.org/register/requirements.php) that you feel RCU doesn't adhere to.


You have not done this--please do so.

> I think one more question is relevant: does any noticeable number of people use that free distro on that tablet?
> this package would essentially support proprietary software


How far are you going to move these goalposts? RCU is the free software that allows more free software, and also specifically a completely free OS, to become installed through its Software Pane. I demand impartiality, which is the reason those Hosting Requirements are posted in the first place.

Directly tell me, with quoted citations and your interpretation of their context, how I would be violating the Hosting Requirements.

And do also tell me, why are you putting so much significance on what software runs on the tablet when RCU specifically runs on a PC, even after I have proven that it doesn't matter because RCU works equally-well with both free and nonfree software on the tablet and on the PC. The entire thing--the PC, the tablet, RCU itself--is fully supported with all-free software, and I even list the compatibility list with free OSes first in-sequence. I have even went so far to agree to port an "approved" free OS. I don't see how you can object to this.

Thanks,
Davis

- <_203854>
Sun 02 Aug 2020 07:52:05 AM UTC, comment #12: 

I think one more question is relevant: does any noticeable number of people use that free distro on that tablet? Do you always or nearly always use it on your tablets yourself?

If not, we may suggest that your work with that free distro on the tablet is more of academical than practical value, and this package would essentially support proprietary software.

By the way, I don't think it matters very much whether the users install proprietary software themselves or someone else pre-installs it for them: what's wrong is that people use proprietary software.

Ineiev <ineiev>
Site AdministratorIn charge of this item.
Sun 02 Aug 2020 03:06:38 AM UTC, comment #11: 

Hi Bandali,

Nice to meet you again--I believe we co-moderated the IRC channels at LibrePlanet.

Yes, Debian runs with only the free repositories. But, I can see you guys really want a 'certified free' distro. Although I object to such a thing because certifications are not what makes software free, and it isn't specified in the hosting rules, I will do the needful and get one of those running on the tablet so that it cannot be a point of contention.

Ineiev: once I do that, what other objections will you have with my project?

Thanks,
Davis

- <_203854>
Fri 31 Jul 2020 12:07:40 AM UTC, comment #10: 

Hello Davis, Ineiev,

Seeing Davis's request for a second opinion, I thought I'd chime in.
Though I will preface my message with the fact that I'm a fairly new
Savannah hacker, and less experienced than Ineiev certainly in reviewing
new project registration applications.

I agree that we should strive to not move the goalposts on a per-project
basis and not impose arbitrary additional conditions than what is stated
on the Savannah Hosting Requirements document, to use a standard process
for all applications with as much as objectivity as possible.

I will list a few questions that may help move this application further.

Davis, do I understand correctly that a reMarkable tablet can be used in
freedom without requiring the user to run any nonfree software?  Was
your reddit link showing Debian running on the tablet a demonstration of
that?

From a quick search, it seems that reMarkable uses an i.MX6 processor,
based on the ARMv7 architecture.  This is likely good news, since quite
a few GNU/Linux distributions support this architecture.  Thus, if you
were able to get Debian's ARMv7 port running on it, there is hope that
you would also be able to get an FSDG-approved distribution running on
it, given the distribution supports the processor archiecture.  So this
would come down to which FSDG-compliant distros support ARMv7.  Of the
ones listed at <https://www.gnu.org/distros/free-distros.html>, it seems
that Parabola and GNU Guix System provide installation images for ARMv7.
Thus, if these can run on reMarkable, it would alleviate the concerns
and not require the stock OS to be FSDG-approved.

Lastly, to quote the Savannah Hosting Requirements,

> It is ok for the program to run on nonfree platforms or nonfree
> operating systems, and to work with well-known nonfree applications,
> in addition to working with free software, provided it gives the free
> software at least as good support as it gives to nonfree counterparts.
> In other words, at no time, in no way, should your program put free
> software users at a disadvantage compared to those willing to use
> proprietary software.


Considering the demonstration of running Debian on reMarkable, if it is
without the need to enable Debian's `non-free` repository, I believe it
indirectly checks this box for RCU.  Even more so if GNU Guix System
and/or Parabola can run on reMarkable as well.

Hope this helps.

Amin Bandali <bandali>
Site Administrator
Thu 30 Jul 2020 03:34:48 PM UTC, comment #9: 

Ineiev,

I don't think you're following the Hosting Requirements document and are "moving the goalposts" to prevent me entering the Savannah system. The sequence of events has been:

1) I applied for my project to be hosted by Savannah

2) You denied me, stating "those e-tablets run proprietary software"

3) I disputed that because they don't. I further clarified that my project doesn't technically even communicate with proprietary software, but only the filesystem on any remote host over SSH.

4) You again denied me, this time deflecting from "run proprietary software" to "there is no free software that could realistically replace the nonfree parts on that device"

5) Again, I disputed that and proved the tablet, in fact, can run wholly using free software, including replacements for the (stock) nonfree parts of the device.

6) After a week, you then replied not citing any of the proof I gave, and moved the goalposts stating the tablet had to run a distribution listed on free-distros.html or free-non-gnu-distros.html. Nowhere in the hosting requirements does it say this. Furthermore, it is completely under false pretenses, because RCU does not run on the tablet, it runs on a PC--a PC running 100% free software. It just so happens the tablet can also run 100% free software.

7) Then you wrote, "The difference from hdup is: hdup is intended to connect to a device that may run an FSDG-compliant distro, whereas RCU isn't." How can you make this claim when Hdup only has a description? It's clear to me you didn't really look at that link. And besides that fact, even if I played along to your line about an "FSDG-compliant distro," RCU also connects to any SSH device that could run a 100% free distro. Furthermore, free software is not defined by vendor certifications, it is defined by the four freedoms (https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.en.html) which RCU completely adheres to.

8) Then you told me it wouldn't matter anyway, because even if I could provide examples of projects approved by the Savannah administrators, they all would have been wrongly approved.

RCU is not dependent on nonfree software. This is indisputable. You cannot say that networked software implies usage of nonfree software. Again, even if it did, I've proven this tablet can and does run wholly-free software. Furthermore, you can't dispute usage of proprietary software because, as I have previously cited, from the Hosting Requirements:

> The program should deliver its full functionality and convenience on a completely free platform based on a free operating system, such as GNU/Linux, working entirely with other free software. Otherwise, it would be an inducement to install nonfree operating systems or other nonfree software.


> It is ok for the program to run on nonfree platforms or nonfree operating systems, and to work with well-known nonfree applications, in addition to working with free software, provided it gives the free software at least as good support as it gives to nonfree counterparts. In other words, at no time, in no way, should your program put free software users at a disadvantage compared to those willing to use proprietary software.


RCU doesn't entice users to install nonfree software, because the stock nonfree program (Xochitl) is preinstalled on every tablet. And, it's OK for RCU to "work with" (i.e. placing files in the spots that nonfree software would look) so long as it works as well with free software, which it does such as in the case of KOReader.

So, concretely, please respond specifically citing the sentences of the Hosting Requirements (https://savannah.nongnu.org/register/requirements.php) that you feel RCU doesn't adhere to. I'd also like another Savannah administrator to be CC'd on this chain, and for a second opinion to be made, because I think RCU follows every word of that document, and as-such I'm being unfairly denied.

Thanks,
Davis

- <_203854>
Thu 30 Jul 2020 08:07:15 AM UTC, comment #8: 

No, I mean the device RCU speaks to.  I do understand that RCU itself can run under an OS like Trisquel.

The difference from hdup is: hdup is intended to connect to a device that may run an FSDG-compliant distro, whereas RCU isn't.

If you provided some examples from Savannah that are really analogous, it would mean that they need fixing rather than that we should add more such packages to Savannah.

Ineiev <ineiev>
Site AdministratorIn charge of this item.
Wed 29 Jul 2020 10:45:45 PM UTC, comment #7: 

Hi Ineiev,

To clarify, you're suggesting that RCU be able to run under a completely-free OS (like Trisquel), correct?

I want to make sure that you're aware that RCU is a desktop client that communicates over SSH to a target device. It is no different than an SCP client. And so, RCU would connect and change the files on whatever target device was given to it regardless of whether that target device was running free or nonfree software.

Please confirm your understanding. I will have no problem using Trisquel as the officially-supported GNU/Linux distribution (instead of Ubuntu), but if you have a problem with the second point--that the stock tablet itself doesn't run completely free software--then I will provide evidence of other Savannah projects which work in the same way as RCU: programs which themselves are free (SCP or IRC clients), and use a network to connect to a server (RCU is a client to a tablet server) which may or may not be running free software.

Here is just one program analogous to RCU: https://savannah.nongnu.org/projects/hdup

Thanks,
Davis

- <_203854>
Wed 29 Jul 2020 05:58:09 PM UTC, comment #6: 

I think we would be on the safe side if your distribution were listed on https://www.gnu.org/distros/free-distros.html or https://www.gnu.org/distros/free-non-gnu-distros.html; unfortunately, it doesn't seem so.

Ineiev <ineiev>
Site AdministratorIn charge of this item.
Tue 28 Jul 2020 04:44:29 PM UTC, comment #5: 

Hi Ineiev,

It's been a while since I've heard anything. Could you provide me with an update? Please let me know if there's anything I can do to expedite the process.

Thanks,
Davis

- <_203854>
Thu 23 Jul 2020 06:37:14 PM UTC, comment #4: 

Just for posterity, below is a comment/request that I made directly to the savannah-register-public which was not picked up by this tracking system.

--

I'm also sorry, in my original submission I misunderstood what "Name" and
"System Name" meant--please accept these updated registration details:

  Name:         reMarkable Connection Utility
  System Name:  rcu

--

Thanks,
Davis

- <_203854>
Tue 21 Jul 2020 05:56:29 PM UTC, comment #3: 

Hello Ineiev, thank you for your response. I saw something in your last message about "replied off-item" so I'm not sure why Savannah wouldn't track the mailing list, but nonetheless I'll now reply directly from the Savannah interface.

> The problem is: there is no free software that could realistically replace the nonfree parts on that device.
> Using that tablet implies using proprietary software


I would like to dispel that myth. I have ported Debian to the tablet with a window manager and access to free programs through apt[1], and there are free reading applications like KOReader[2] and Plato[3]. Furthermore, there are free drawing programs, like rmHarmony[4].

[1]: https://old.reddit.com/r/RemarkableTablet/comments/gkktxy/desktop_linux_on_remarkable_xournal_doom_and_more/
[2]: https://github.com/koreader/koreader
[3]: https://github.com/darvin/plato
[4]: https://github.com/raisjn/rmHarmony

[1] is the very first RCU-compatible package ever created (RCU facilitates installing free software to the device). [2], [3], and [4] currently must be installed somewhat manually, but a feature of RCU makes it accessible to ordinary computer users.

So, it is entirely possible to use the reMarkable tablet with all-free user-facing software, with programs providing an adequate level of parity with the proprietary notebooking software (Xochitl).

> When hosting Android programs, we require that people make sure those programs work on Replicant, a free version of Android.


I'm sorry if we don't understand each other, but it's not like that situation. The OS of the reMarkable tablet is free. The manufacturer publishes the complete sources through GitHub--a smattering of licenses for sure, but all free. Therefore, the OS is already free, and it's not like Android where the OS necessarily depends upon nonfree parts. Today, a user may compile this free OS themselves and install the user-facing free programs mentioned above.

Link [5] contains the necessary (pre-compiled) bits for loading a 100% free OS. These are from the manufacturer: an initramfs, uboot image, and the imx_usb utility to load it into the device's RAM over USB boot.

[5]: https://github.com/reMarkable/imx_usb_loader
[6]: https://github.com/reMarkable/linux
[7]: https://github.com/reMarkable/uboot
[8]: https://github.com/reMarkable/meta-openembedded
etc.

Even furthermore, RCU does not run on the reMarkable device--it runs on a free operating system on a PC and communicates to the device over the network, so I don't think your analogy is very compatible in the way you stated.

RCU will work 100% with this all-free operating system, explicitly minus the proprietary blobs and Xochitl.

Looking at it another way, RCU provides a package manager that allows the user to install free software. And so, for an ordinary (techno-illiterate) user to even get free programs onto the device, it would require a program like RCU to carry out that operation. So, there are currently few free options available for the tablet, and they are fragmented. RCU is a catalyst for free software usage because most users do not have the technical skill to manage their device's software, and RCU is the first good manager to exist to make that process simple.

Yet another way it could be seen is that out of the 6 core functions RCU provides (please see the draft manual linked in the application), 4 do not even imply having nonfree software: taking partition-level backups, taking screenshots, managing documents, and installing software packages all work 100% with the free software available today. The latter makes it possible to install free software in the first place. So, out of the core functions, 100% work with free software, but 33% don't yet align with user-facing free replacements (managing notebook templates and sleep wallpapers) but those functions do still work when the tablet is running a 100% free OS.

> It is ok for the program to run on nonfree platforms or nonfree operating systems, and to work with well-known nonfree applications, in addition to working with free software, provided it gives the free software at least as good support as it gives to nonfree counterparts.


I think it does, and if you have a suggestion about how to make my program better, I will gladly listen. I think there is enough evidence here to show that your assumptions were mistaken.

Thanks,
Davis

- <_203854>
Tue 21 Jul 2020 09:32:19 AM UTC, comment #2: 

(Davis Remmel replied off-item):

> I think it's disingenuous to say that RCU depends on proprietary
> software. The reMarkable tablet has a free base system (a version of
> Yocto which is linux+busybox+systemd), and the only proprietary bits
> are: (1) wifi blob, (2) touch driver blob (which isn't really
> necessary because there is mainline kernel support), and (3) their
> proprietary notebooking application, called Xochitl.
>
> I could see how your argument could have merit if RCU was talking
> directly with Xochitl, but it does not. RCU simply changes files on
> the tablet, using all-free software (dropbear is the SSH server on the
> tablet).  The most interaction it has with the proprietary Xochitl
> program is restarting its system service.
>
> This tablet provides SSH access by-default, and so RCU works entirely
> with a factory-fresh device, using all-free software.
>
> Directly from the Savannah requirements:
>
>> It is ok for the program to run on nonfree platforms or nonfree
>> operating systems, and to work with well-known nonfree applications,
>> in addition to working with free software, provided it gives the
>> free software at least as good support as it gives to nonfree
>> counterparts.
>
> I believe this requirement is completely satisfied.


The problem is: there is no free software that could realistically
replace the nonfree parts on that device.  Using that tablet implies
using proprietary software.  When hosting Android programs,
we require that people make sure that those programs work
on Replicant, a free version of Android.  I suppose, it may be
even impossible to run a similar test for RCU.

Ineiev <ineiev>
Site AdministratorIn charge of this item.
Mon 20 Jul 2020 08:10:08 AM UTC, comment #1: 

As far as I understand, those e-tablets run proprietary software; in other words, this package depends on proprietary software.

Ineiev <ineiev>
Site AdministratorIn charge of this item.
Sun 19 Jul 2020 10:54:29 PM UTC, original submission:  

A new project has been registered at Savannah
This project account will remain inactive until a site admin approves
or discards the registration.

Registration Administration

While this item will be useful to track the registration process,
approving or discarding the registration must be done using the specific Group Administration page, accessible only to site administrators,
effectively logged as site administrators (superuser):

Registration Details

  • Name: Davis Remmel
  • System Name:  davisr
  • Type: non-GNU software and documentation
  • License: GNU General Public License v3 or later

Description:

reMarkable Connection Utility (RCU) provides all-in-one offline management of the reMarkable(R) tablet device. With RCU, users may create and restore full system backups, downgrade their tablet's OS, capture screenshots, manage notebooks, templates, wallpapers, and third-party software.

RCU is special because the manufacturer of this device pushes its users into their document synchronization "cloud". While they are nice enough to provide SSH access to the tablet, this is only useful for advanced users. RCU, working through that SSH connection, makes it simple for non-technical users to manage their device.

The application is licensed as GPLv3 and is written in Python (3.6+) using the PySide2 (Qt) graphics framework. It is incredibly portable because it has few dependencies (which are LGPL2.1, LGPLv3, and GPLv3-compatible).

Although RCU is developed on FreeBSD 12.1, it may run almost anywhere, and is tested on Ubuntu 16.04, macOS 10.11, and Windows 10.

A draft of the user manual is available at: http://www.davisr.me/dropbox/DKfi34j8fDFj348Ho7kHJ/manual.pdf

Other Software Required:

Python 3.8 - GPL Compatible - https://docs.python.org/3/license.html

PySide2 - LGPLv3 - https://wiki.qt.io/PySide2

Qt - LGPLv2.1 - https://www.qt.io/

Paramiko - LGPLv2.1 - https://www.paramiko.org/

IMX USB Loader - LGPLv2.1 - https://github.com/reMarkable/imx_usb_loader

Other Comments:

Greetings,

I am the author of RCU and I would like to use Savannah as a public mailing list. Although RCU is libre software (GPLv3), I do not distribute it gratis; I want to sell this software, and so I would like to retain my right to distribute the source code only to those who have paid for my version. I won't mind keeping RCU's code in Savannah if it can remain private, but I primarily want to have a public mailing list for user contributions. Please email me at <d@visr.me> to discuss this, if necessary.

My project follows all of the guidelines for Savannah, and so I hope this application may be approved.

Thanks for reviewing my request,
Davis

Tarball URL:

http://www.davisr.me/dropbox/23485kjFJ459f834jid0/rcu.tar.gz

- <_203854>

 

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    Date Changed by Updated Field Previous Value => Replaced by
    2020-08-27 ineiev StatusIn Progress => Cancelled
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    2020-07-20 ineiev StatusNone => In Progress
        Assigned toNone => ineiev

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